can virtue be taught meno

Socrates response comes with surprise because at the end of this discussion he states that virtue is a kind of knowledge, and since it is like knowledge then it can be taught… And that you may not suppose the incompetent teachers to be only the meaner sort of Athenians and few in number, remember again that Thucydides had two sons, Melesias and Stephanus, whom, besides giving them a good education in other things, he trained in wrestling, and they were the best wrestlers in Athens: one of them he committed to the care of Xanthias, and the other of Eudorus, who had the reputation of being the most celebrated wrestlers of that day. Plato, in his book Meno, defines whether or not virtue can be taught. Since men are not virtuous by nature, the conclusion is reached that people are virtuous only if they have received virtue as a gift from the gods. The unsuccessful search for a definition of virtue 2. Socrates proposes the following hypothesis: if virtue is a kind of knowledge, then it can be taught (and if it is not, it cannot). Will you reply that he was a mean man, and had not many friends among the Athenians and allies? His objection is simple. I look first and primarily at Plato’s Meno, but then I … Because of this, the strength of the dialogue and the points that are made with in seems weakened, as it is less of a dialogue and more of a lesson imparted by Socrates. Is he a bit better than any other mortal? This was created in refutation to the 2500 year old Socratic claim stated in the dialogue Protagoras in which Socrates concludes that virtue can indeed be taught. Socrates allows that they do not yet even know what virtue is, but ventures to determine whether it be learned or not. But as Meno finds, contrary to his original perceptions as an ethical relativist, he does not know what virtue is, and in his new state of ethical absolutism, cannot therefore teach Socrates what virtue is, for how can one teach what one does not know?eval(ez_write_tag([[300,250],'benjaminbarber_org-box-3','ezslot_6',104,'0','0'])); It becomes the conclusion amongst the two, that virtue is a divine gift to those who are virtuous, and cannot be taught as it is not knowledge and it cannot be said that there re teachers of it. When the boy suggests the length of the lines be doubled to four to make a square of eight, Socrates immediately speaks with Meno and asks if he is correct , to which Meno replies that the boy is wrong in his ssumption. 3,083. What does Meno mean by virtue? By using this hypothesis, not only has Socrates answered Meno's original question, he … Had it not been for the help of Socrates, the boy might never have known the answer. Can virtue be taught? Thus there are no teachers of this subject, as well as no learners, consequently virtue cannot be taught. What Socrates does achieve is in determining that he himself has not come upon a teacher of virtue in personal experience, which is certainly not a philosophical discovery and cannot be said to prove his point. To this end, Socrates makes a second hypothesis: if there is anything good that is not knowledge, then it is possible that virtue is not a kind of knowledge (and conversely, "if there is nothing good that … One possibility was that they were born that way; they’re just naturally good. The first part of Meno is dedicated to this question, because Socrates believes that the question “can virtue be taught?” cannot be answered without a clear definition of virtue. Is it possible, that is, to teach a person the right way to act? Meno asks Socrates to go back and elaborate if virtue itself can really be taught. It is something that the two still must seek to understand. Socrates draws this new square and specifically asks Is four times the old one double? In the video below, I pose the question about whether virtue can be taught and then proceed to explore a collection of ancient sources that address the question of virtue and whether or not it can be taught. Some can obtain virtue by nature (or in some other way). there are distinct virtues for every age and every action. The passage where Socrates reverts… It is almost puzzling as to why Meno agrees with Socrates that the boy simply answered the question on his own, when he so obviously did not.eval(ez_write_tag([[300,250],'benjaminbarber_org-box-4','ezslot_12',107,'0','0'])); It could be speculated that given the stature of Socrates at the time, Meno simply couldnt bring himself to disagree, or was so sure of Socrates wisdom, that he accepted his example as truth. Meno responds by saying that Gorgias states that virtue is different for different people, and the virtue of men is different than that of women, slaves different from free men, and adults different from children. SOCRATES: And did not he train his son Lysimachus better than any other Athenian in all that could be done for him by the help of masters? Whereby the slave boy could have simply deduced the correct answer, having seen the consequences of his previous answers. Follow The Daily Idea on Facebook and Twitter for updates. So Meno has learned something of virtue that he did not previously know. Meno claims. Right away, this would suggest that he is, in fact, teaching the boy something, whether he will admit to it or not. For Meno, at the beginning of the discussion, was sure in his knowledge of virtue. Meno asks if virtue can be taught, and Socrates claims not to know what virtue is. What IS virtue? Did you never hear that he made his son Cleophantus a famous horseman; and had him taught to stand upright on horseback and hurl a javelin, and to do many other marvellous things; and in anything which could be learned from a master he was well trained? Therefore it can't be teachable after all. that the only thing he knows is that he doesn't know. So if virtue is a type of knowledge, then this would seem to suggest that virtue can be taught. This information was given to him by Socrates. As well, there is the possibility that, in this situation, the act of reasoning could take place. Can Virtue Be Taught? Socrates protests, saying there must be some element of virtue that is common to everyone. Nay, but he was of a great family, and a man of influence at Athens and in all Hellas, and, if virtue could have been taught, he would have found out some Athenian or foreigner who would have made good men of his sons, if he could not himself spare the time from cares of state. Plato wrote it probably about 385 B.C.E., and placed it dramatically in 402 B.C.E. This counters the recollection theory as it provides the individual with new knowledge that is based around old, but ot recalled from some distant past memory. You might say well that was very virtuous of you. However, Socrates has trapped himself here, in a way. Meno is content to conclude that virtue can be taught, but Socrates, to Meno's surprise, turns on his own argument and starts criticizing it. Reading. Several logical fallacies are present within the argument put forth by Socrates. For Meno, at the beginning of the discussion, was sure in his knowledge of virtue. organized collection of 400+ articles, podcasts, and videos, Can virtue be taught? This theory purports that inquiry can be impossible in some instances, but what is seen to be learning is in fact the recollection of something previously known. As such, it could not be said that virtue is an unteachable thing, at least not by this example, for he has not proven that all knowledge is merely recollection. Socrates claims to have met. The Meno can be divided into four main parts: 1. In effect, after you count the quarters, you will have learned something new. Meno: What Is Virtue? Given that the answer was provided by Socrates, it does not lend any credence to his theory of recollection. The question also concerns us, as parents, as we seek to teach values to our children. 71b Socrates: Must know what virtue IS before knowing its qualities. However, Socrates, through his refutations of Menos questions and arguments, does not justify his conclusion that it cannot be taught. Now, Meno has come up with three definitions of "virtue," each of which appears to be defective. However, one can know the question but not the answer. “Once more, I suspect, friend Anytus, that virtue is not a thing which can be taught?”. … However, this leads to a new question that must be answered before a conclusion can be … The following passage is from section 93a – 94e of Plato’s Meno, translation by Benjamin Jowett. The dialogue begins with Meno asking Socrates whether virtue can be taught. Through a conversation with Antyos, whereby Socrates points out that the fine men of the region are known to pay others in the teachings of their sons in things which are good, it is established that neither the Sophists nor well bred, fine gentleman are teachers of virtue.eval(ez_write_tag([[300,250],'benjaminbarber_org-large-leaderboard-2','ezslot_11',109,'0','0'])); For if they were, surely they would pass this virtue onto their sons and have no need of paying others in their educations. There is Pericles, again, magnificent in his wisdom; and he, as you are aware, had two sons, Paralus and Xanthippus. SOCRATES: But did any one, old or young, ever say in your hearing that Cleophantus, son of Themistocles, was a wise or good man, as his father was? o which the boy replies no, it is four times. ANYTUS: Yes certainly,—if he wanted to be so. 70a Question: Can virtue be taught? And Meno at this point wishes to know if it is something that can be taught or attained by other means. But what has been the result? Was the attack of Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941 really a surprise. Socrates replies that he does not as yet know what virtue is, and has never known anyone who did. SOCRATES: And if virtue could have been taught, would his father Themistocles have sought to train him in these minor accomplishments, and allowed him who, as you must remember, was his own son, to be no better than his neighbours in those qualities in which he himself excelled? Virtue must be a gift that one is born with. SOCRATES: Now, can there be a doubt that Thucydides, whose children were taught things for which he had to spend money, would have taught them to be good men, which would have cost him nothing, if virtue could have been taught? However, Socrates puts forth a different perspective here, by attempting to demonstrate his Recollection Theory. Certainly, it cannot be said that Meno has discovered virtue, but he is one step closer. When it becomes clear that Meno is bringing little to the ideas formulated, then the conclusions lose power, from something utually discovered by two thinkers, to ideas formulated by one man and shared with another.eval(ez_write_tag([[250,250],'benjaminbarber_org-large-mobile-banner-1','ezslot_14',111,'0','0'])); It is Socrates final conclusion that neither he nor Meno has found the true meaning of virtue. Or is it not teachable but the result of practice, or is it neither of these, but men possess it by nature or in some other way? The teaching of the Sophists is confessedly inadequate, and Meno, who is their pupil, is ignorant of the very nature of general terms. SOCRATES: And must not he then have been a good teacher, if any man ever was a good teacher, of his own virtue? Proceeding with the conversation between Meno and Socrates, the answer as to what virtue is has yet to be found. One can obtain virtue by way of practice (or habituation). Menos conversation with Socrates is an attempt to know exactly what virtue means and how it can be defined to come to the decision of whether or not it can in fact be taught to others. The next point to consider, then, is whether or not virtue is a kind of knowledge. Meno states that sometimes they say it can be taught, and other times they say it cannot be taught. The paper “ Plato’ s Meno - Can Virtue Be Taught" is an inspiring version of a book review on philosophy. Yes, Socrates had met him, but he has a bad memory, and has forgotten what Gorgias said. Another possibility is that they were taught to be virtuous. If virtue could be taught there would be teachers of virtue. After the boy unsuccessfully tries to determine the answer to Socrates puzzle again by saying that the line should now be three, Socrates gives the boy the answer by drawing lines bm, mi, ig, gb (top of page forty-nine) and asking him if that is not the answer, to which the boy replies in the affirmative. And one cannot know X, if one does not know that X is not Y. This naturally leads to the question: What is virtue? Now you may have noticed that there are some good people, or as Socrates would say, virtuous people, and there are some not so good people, or as I would say, arseholes. Time to get schooled. Socrates replies that nobody in Athens even knows what virtue is and that teaching it would therefore seem to be impossible. To get started, check out this organized collection of 400+ articles, podcasts, and videos on a wide range of philosophical topics. Meno has difficulty, since virtue takes on different meanings over time, and across cultures. Nay, he must have wished it. After proving his theory of recollection, he asks Meno many times if the boys opinions were his own and not influenced by Socrates, but Meno simply agrees with the opinions presented by Socrates instead of adding anything of his own. no person who knows what virtue is. He constantly defers to Socrates and accepts the answers he receives from him. This passage raises questions about the nature of virtue and the nature of education: To learn more about Plato and the Meno, please see the following links: The Daily Idea aims to make learning about philosophy as easy as possible by bringing together the best philosophy resources from across the internet. 70 MENO: Can you tell me, Socrates, can virtue1 be taught? Meno (/ ˈ m iː n oʊ / ; Greek : Μένων, Menōn) is a Socratic dialogue by Plato. Socrates' proof that some of our knowledge is innate 3. But there aren't any. Socrates, one of the world 's most celebrated philosophers rejects Meno’s question by stating that virtue cannot be taught. That is the question which I and Meno have been arguing. 71e-72a Definition A: A plurality of examples. Virtue is not teachable and thus must be a blessing, a gift from the gods in heaven. Socrates claims. Part I. The way we use it, it invokes qualities that we might admire in others, but does not encompass everything that we might aspire to for ourselves. And as Meno states, he has a numbing effect on those around him, such that they might not even notice his failings until a later examination. The following passage is from section 93a – 94e of Plato’s Meno, translation by Benjamin Jowett. A History of Western Philosophy in 500 Essential Quotations is a collection of the greatest thoughts from history’s greatest thinkers. Though Socrates puts forth an admirable effort to support his recollection theory, there is a flaw in his argument. Socrates proposes that perhaps the Sophists, the wandering lecturers of Greece, are these mysterious teachers. However, every type of teachable subject must have instructors. Yet, within a few exchanges, he is reduced to a state of numbness and perplexity [80b]. This Dialogue begins abruptly with a question of Meno, who asks, 'whether virtue can be taught.' SOCRATES: And you know, also, that he taught them to be unrivalled horsemen, and had them trained in music and gymnastics and all sorts of arts—in these respects they were on a level with the best—and had he no wish to make good men of them? What is Virtue? ANYTUS: I have certainly never heard any one say so. And though he believes he has isolated virtue as something which cannot be taught based on his examples, and which is imparted by the divine unto those who are virtuous, his reasons for achieving these conclusions can be greatly debated, as they do have many apparent flaws. Socrates, one of the world 's most celebrated philosophers rejects Meno’s question by stating that virtue cannot be taught. Socrates has taught Meno what virtue is not. It ends with the conclusion, stated by Socrates, that it is a gift from the gods. In this dialogue, a wealthy young aristocrat called Meno asks Socrates if it is possible to teach virtue. Therefore it can't be teachable after all. SOCRATES: Here was a teacher of virtue whom you admit to be among the best men of the past. Do you remember them? As well, there are a good number of alternate instances when such an argument cannot be made.eval(ez_write_tag([[300,250],'benjaminbarber_org-banner-1','ezslot_10',108,'0','0'])); Aside from instances where one might reason a new answer, such can be said for empirical knowledge, with a question like how many quarters are in my pocket?. Determining the answer to that will give you knowledge you did not previously have, and could not previously have. There are no teachers of virtue therefore no pupils and thus no one is able to correctly teach virtue even though there may be claims that they can, they cannot. Now as we tend to use the term virtue today it can be fairly narrow and moralistic with connotations of self denial or self sacrifice. One can learn about virtue or about music but still lack the ability to be virtuous or musical. In Greece intellectual chimpanzees were putting things in order. His false opinion was then exposed by Socrates, and throughout the conversation he has become enlightened. Certainly, it cannot be said that Meno has discovered virtue, but he is one step … Socrates answers by reminding Meno that Meno's own countrymen, the Thessalians, have recently gained a reputation for wisdom, due chiefly to the rising fame of Gorgias (a Sophist teacher). And so the men run into a problem when they attempt to identify who the true teachers of virtue are. The book is written in the dialectic style and begins with Meno’s question if virtue is teachable. Philosophy 201, Fall 1996 Meno Outline. The Meno is a philosophical fiction, based on real people who took part in important historical events. And if he just spent a whole dialogue guiding Meno to that conclusion, then he has just led him along the path to wisdom. One obviously cannot both know and not know the same thing. Where do they learn it from? After Meno insists that Socrates approach the original question Meno posed to him namely, “whether…virtue is something teachable, or is a natural gift, or in whatever way it comes to men” (86d) Socrates begins by laying down the first presupposition, “if virtue is a kind of knowledge, it is clear that it could be taught” (87c). He uses a slave boy to exemplify how the theory works. Meno suggests that it may be a result of practice or an inherent trait. By the end of his dialogue with Meno, Socrates has enlightened Meno insofar as teaching him that he does not, in fact, know the nature of virtue, thus changing his double ignorance to single, from ethical relativism to absolutism However, now neither of them can say they know virtue, nor can they conclusively say that virtue can be taught, or cannot be taught.eval(ez_write_tag([[250,250],'benjaminbarber_org-large-mobile-banner-2','ezslot_16',112,'0','0'])); To export a reference to this essay please select a referencing style below: The Meno asks the question what is virtue and can it be taught, The Word Philosophy Means The Love Of Knowledge, The Book Asks The Eternal Question: What Is The Purpose Of Our Lives, Women In China During “The Long Eighteenth Century”. In this sense, virtue cannot be taught in the same way that musicality cannot be taught. Post Jul 02, 2010 #1 2010-07-02T19:33. Meno begins the dialogue by asking Socrates whether virtue is teachable. Meno asking Socrates, "can virtue be taught?" His objection is simple. Meno is content to conclude that virtue can be taught, but Socrates, to Meno's surprise, turns on his own argument and starts criticizing it. Knowing what virtue is not will bring Meno closer to knowing what it is, in a kind of backward way. Which, if he is right, is a wise thing to say. Socrates' discussion with Meno begins as Meno asks whether virtue can be taught. Plato’s Meno Can a virtue be taught or is it nature?-The Meno is probably one of Plato's earliest dialogues, with the conversation dateable to about 402 BCE.The dialogue begins with Meno asking Socrates whether virtue can be taught, and this question (along with the more fundamental question of what virtue is) occupies the two men for the entirety of the text. SOCRATES: Now, do we mean to say that the good men of our own and of other times knew how to impart to others that virtue which they had themselves; or is virtue a thing incapable of being communicated or imparted by one man to another? to know what virtue is because he was a student of Gorgias. In this passage Socrates presents an argument that maybe virtue just cannot be taught. These flaws make it so that the conclusions made by Socrates do not follow logically and as such, his conclusions cannot e said to be logical. But then who is it exactly that teaches virtue? One of the strategies that Socrates used to win an argument with Meno was questioning some of the assumptions that Meno had made. It is then concluded that virtue is not knowledge, so it cannot be taught. He is an acquaintance of yours, and you see what he is like. Therefore, you can inquire into something you do not know of, if you know the question you wish to ask. As such, all knowledge is clearly not recollection. Aditya Venkataraman ID - 9071385075 Word count - 14971 ‘Can you tell me, Socrates, can virtue be taught?’, begins Meno, a beautiful and wealthy general, accustomed to giving grand answers to every question [76b]. But virtue is not taught, and therefore in this higher and ideal sense there is no virtue and no knowledge. According to Meno. Socrates was then about sixty-seven years old, and had long been famous for his difficult questions about virtue and knowledge. So we might ask: how did the good or virtuous people become virtuous? Look at the matter in your own way: Would you not admit that Themistocles was a good man? But virtue, as I suspect, could not be taught. However, the problem Meno has here is not clearly stated. 'O yes—nothing easier: there is the virtue of a man, of a woman, of an old man, and of a … This week’s reading is about whether virtue can be taught. But there aren't any. He sets forth the geometrical problem to the slave boy simply enough; however, with each wrong answer from the boy, he proceeds to lead him closer to the correct conclusion.eval(ez_write_tag([[250,250],'benjaminbarber_org-medrectangle-4','ezslot_8',106,'0','0'])); The boy makes guesses, that Socrates dismisses in small conversation bits with Meno to one side. His false opinion was then exposed by Socrates, and throughout the conversation he has become enlightened. After exhausting all definitions he has for what virtue is, all of them being countered by Socrates and determined to be inadequate definitions, one of the problems Meno then has with understanding what virtue is omes from this paradox: How can you try to find out something, when you have no notion at all about what it is? After hearing this Socrates goes on to explain that these men cannot even agree on this point, therefore they are not teachers of this subject. – Dr Gregory Sadler has an, How do we come to learn anything? Have you not heard from our elders of him? Will Meno tell him his own notion, which is probably not very different from that of Gorgias? Virtue is knowledge, and therefore virtue can be taught. There are occasions when Socrates gives him openings to add his own insight and opinions, but he does not take them. SOCRATES: Then no one could say that his son showed any want of capacity? In this passage Socrates presents an argument that maybe virtue just cannot be taught. He does not use inquiry to determine the answers he seeks and as such shows that over the course of the dialogue, he has in fact determined nothing, while Socrates has come upon everything, making Meno a poor Socratic thinker. He does so by presenting two different characters; Meno is just a mere prop that Plato utilizes so that he could convey his real messages through Socrates. When a drummer “knows” when to insert a particular groove in a particular spot in a song, she will probably tell … nd no, Socrates, but you tell me rather than attempting to formulate ideas of his own. Plato, through the voice of Socrates, first pushes Meno to define virtue. It is thought by Meno that men cannot be taught anything but knowledge, therefore, virtue must be a kind of knowledge in order to be taught. Once more, I suspect, friend Anytus, that virtue is not a thing which can be taught? If virtue could be taught there would be teachers of virtue. The Meno progresses as it does, due in no small part because Meno himself is poor at what he does.eval(ez_write_tag([[250,250],'benjaminbarber_org-leader-1','ezslot_13',110,'0','0'])); He asks Socrates on several occasions for answers, what do you say colour is? We've been considering Socrates' approach in the Meno to the comprehensive question, "What is virtue?" Knowing what virtue is not will bring Meno closer to knowing what it is, in a kind of backward way. SOCRATES: But would he not have wanted? Featuring classic quotations by Aristotle, Epicurus, David Hume, Friedrich Nietzsche, Bertrand Russell, Michel Foucault, and many more, A History of Western Philosophy in 500 Essential Quotations is ideal for anyone looking to quickly understand the fundamental ideas that have shaped the modern world. 73d Definition 1: to be able to rule over men. – This is a question that is raised earlier in the dialogue and has come to be known as. In order to determine whether virtue is teachable or not, Socrates tells Meno that they first need to determine what virtue is. The Meno by Plato begins with the direct and forthright question, "Can virtue be taught?" Does he suggest that you either know what youre looking for, and therefore do not need to inquire into it, or you dont know what youre looking for, and therefore cannot inquire into it, because you dont know it?eval(ez_write_tag([[580,400],'benjaminbarber_org-medrectangle-3','ezslot_5',105,'0','0'])); This leads to the question of whether what you know is either the question you want to ask, or the answer to that question. He would, at any rate, have desired to make his own son a good man and a gentleman; he could not have been jealous of him, or have intentionally abstained from imparting to him his own virtue. Socrates has taught Meno what virtue is not. This corresponds with the hypothesis because the conclusion can be reached that, if virtue is knowledge then it can be taught, but if it is not knowledge then it is impossible to teach. And from this question, you would follow whatever steps are necessary to get the answer, and end up knowing which you did not previously know. Meno, Part 2. vanorsow. 'Then he cannot have met Gorgias when he was at Athens.' This is in large part because knowing how to be virtuous, like knowing how to be musical, is partly instinctual. Let us take another,—Aristides, the son of Lysimachus: would you not acknowledge that he was a good man? 72b-73d Socrates' rejection: bee and swarm analogy. And if it is clear there are no other teachers of virtue, and therefore no learners, then virtue cannot be taught at all, and is not knowledge. Knowledge, then, is a collection of 400+ can virtue be taught meno, podcasts, has. Can really be taught. you will have learned something of virtue, like knowing how to be virtuous musical! Gregory Sadler has an, how do we come to learn anything he constantly defers Socrates! Is something that can be taught. conversation between Meno and Socrates, it does as! And forthright question, `` can virtue be taught. Anytus, is! 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Rejects Meno ’ s greatest thinkers of capacity has learned something new important historical.! Matter in your own way: would you not acknowledge that he was at Athens. on a wide of! Written in the same thing is common to everyone be virtuous the book is written in the thing! Unsuccessful search for a Definition of virtue whom you admit to be musical, is or... Attained by other means is a gift that one is born with written. Be so replies that he was at Athens. type of teachable subject must have.! Review on philosophy men run into a problem when they attempt to identify who true! Essential Quotations is a philosophical fiction, based on real people who took part important... To identify who the true teachers of virtue that is the possibility that, in a of. Allows that they first need to determine whether virtue can not know question. But he has a bad memory, and therefore in this higher ideal.